Categories are Flaky in v4.05RC2

[Neilsky]

Having gone back to my T2 from a loan T3 (all docs on SD card), moving a bunch of docs from one category to another gave a fatal error on about the 20th one, had to warm boot. On rerun, all my new categories had disappeared, and all the Web Content documents were back in that category.

Moved the categories again, same crash. Stupidly, I didn't write down the error message, but I think it was a memory-write error of some kind. Deleted DB file manually and tried again.

Now, not sure the database was corrupted immediately on conversion from the previous iSilo version, or as a result of some extra steps I took. Before reallocating categories (above), I considered filing the documents in subfolders on the SD card according to their categories, so created category folder names and manually moved documents into them. Then after seeing the result in iSilo, decided I didn't like that approach because it made finding documents more laborious, so moved all docs back to the home folder and deleted the empty subfolders. Then, the Device and Storage tab kept trying to go to a folder that no longer existed (last Device and Storage tab browse was to there when it did exist), and kept retrying each time I launched iSilo. Kept selecting the old home folder, which it seemed happy about.

Then noticed whilst reallocating categories again, that most of my documents simply don't show up ANYWHERE on the category tab (28 docs in all categories combined), when the Favourites tab and the Device & Storage Card tab both show all 60 docs. For amusement, I tried recreating the names of some of the "old" categories I used to use, but the docs still don't show. All four doc file types are Show-checked under Preferences (and I note that they control visibility in the Device tab as well as the Category tab).

Used iSilo's Special Delete to remove the DB file (instead of deleting it manually), but most docs still don't show anywhere on the Categories tab. I would expect most of them to appear in the Unfiled category, but they don't. I cannot remember reliably whether the "missing" docs showed up in the Categories lists before the first crash, above. I know for certain that I opened and read some "missing" ones, but not sure from which tab. For example, one doc that is "missing" in Categories, but present in Favs and Devices, is the 6Mb CIA World Fact Book, Dec '03 revision (get it from www.handshigh.com).

So, all the category allocations I had under the previous version have disappeared and I can't get them back. Categories seems to be rather problematic in this beta (noting that others have had corruptions and odd behaviour, too).

--- Later
OK, Fatal Alert happened again while moving a Web Content doc to a new category (new category name created in previous move). DataMgr.c, Line:7399, DMWrite:DmWriteCheck failed.

Frozen. Warm boot. The new category I created still exists and both the first AND the "crash" documents are in the category. But I've given up on categories for now.

[Voltage Spike]

You don't mention how you moved the documents around, but using a program external to iSilo could be part of the problem. As far as I can tell, iSilo tracks document information based on the location of the file. If the file is in a different location, then, as far as iSilo is concerned, it is a new document. (Note: you can use iSilo to copy documents and their meta information between your "Favorite" folders.)

I am also not surprised that the documents not showing up in the "Unfiled" category. The newest version of iSilo does not have an "Unfiled" category (unless you created it, in which case it has no special meaning).

I am sorry to hear that you had so much difficulty with categories in the newest version. At least the corrupted database (your initial problem) has been corrected in the release version of iSilo.

[Neilsky]

OK, now I'm NOT making this up. With RC2, I delete the Settings Database using Delete Special. Go back into iSilo and check the Categories list on the Categories tab. There are four: Business, Personal, Unfiled and Web Content. I swap to the Devices tab and immediately back to the Categories tab. There is now a new category in the list called Manuals that I did not just create, and it has 2 of my 3 manuals docs in it (I created a category of that name about five Settings database deletions ago).

Downloaded and installed the most recent 4.05. It does the same thing. Yes, there IS an Unfiled category, and I didn't create it. Menu item, Refresh, doesn't help display the "missing" documents in any category.

Now, if iSilo is not supposed to have an Unfiled category, then where do all the docs that are as yet unallocated to other categories get displayed in the Category tab, so you can assign them to categories? This is quite confusing and is not working for me.

By the way, yes I did use an external program to move the docs about on the card. I variously use Filez, McFile or ZLauncher file manager on the Palm, and my Windows card reader on the PC, depending on what I'm doing at the time. I have no problem with iSilo allocating a database appearing newly in a folder to Unfiled, since it's a "new" doc, but having docs appear and disappear from folders is something that should NOT cause a crash, nor make a doc invisible to the Categories tab. For example, I put ALL my docs on the card using my Windows card reader, because putting all 60 docs on with the card reader takes about 30 seconds, whilst doing it through Hotsync takes over 40 minutes. Selecting Refresh from the menu should have iSilo regenerate Categories lists, removing docs that no longer exist, and adding docs that are newly discovered to Unfiled. This is what TomeRaider refresh does. Where can docs get allocated if there is no Unfiled category?

The method for moving docs about on the card using iSilo is not very convenient. You can only move one at a time, after waiting for the pop-up shortcut menu to show, and you can't create new folders - only pick from the few preset ones on the list.

Next, I removed the SD card from the T2 whilst not in iSilo. I launched iSilo, no docs shown in any tab. The Devices tab is still pointing to the iSilo folder on the card, which is absent! Run Refresh from the menu. iSilo doesn't complain the card is missing, and the dropdown list is still pointing to PALM/programs/iSilo. Run Delete All from the menu, and iSilo doesn't do anything or complain. iSilo clearly is NOT checking anything to do with the card, which is not plugged in. Switch dropdown to [Internal Storage], no docs shown (because there aren't any in main memory). The SC card entry is now absent from the dropdown list. Looking at the Categories tab, there are now only two categories; Business and Personal.

I scan the SD card on my card reader for "spare" copies of the iSilo DB in case this is causing a problem. None found. Reinsert SD card in T2. Relaunch iSilo. Two new categories, Unfiled and Web Content, appear on the Categories dropdown (without swapping tabs). I select the Web Content category and lots of docs appear; iSilo is clearly now pointing to the SD card when my last selection (prior to inserting the card) was to main memory. I swap to the Devices tab and no documents show because it's still pointing to Internal Storage. I navigate to the iSilo folder and all 60 of my documents appear. Back on the Categories tab, most of them still don't show under any category. The Manuals category has reappeared.

Neither Refresh nor Delete All seem to do anything.

This is with the latest 4.05 release. Please advise a fix to this. I work entirely by category, and I need all my docs to show up on the Categories tab.

By the way, a suggestion: it would be nice if the lists allowed you to write a letter and jump to the first doc name starting with that letter if it's not on screen. Scrolling is more laborious.

[Voltage Spike]

OK, now I'm NOT making this up.

I don't believe that anyone claimed you were. Of course, you may have simply been using that as a figure of speech. ;)

I swap to the Devices tab and immediately back to the Categories tab. There is now a new category in the list called Manuals that I did not just create, and it has 2 of my 3 manuals docs in it (I created a category of that name about five Settings database deletions ago).

Is it possible that one of your documents has a "Default Category" of "Manuals"? If iSilo finds a document with a default category, then it will create that category (if it does not already exist) and place the document within it. It probably read the document while you were in the "Devices" tab and acted accordingly.

The other possibility is that you still have the old (4.01 and earlier) categories database in memory. If you delete the new one, then iSilo will translate the old one the next time you start it. If you care to look, the old database is called "_iSiloSettingsDB_".

It does the same thing. Yes, there IS an Unfiled category, and I didn't create it. Menu item, Refresh, doesn't help display the "missing" documents in any category.

See above. Either a document has the default category of "Unfiled" or, more likely, it is picking up the standard categories ("Unfiled", "Personal", "Business", and any user-created categories) from the older category file.

Now, if iSilo is not supposed to have an Unfiled category, then where do all the docs that are as yet unallocated to other categories get displayed in the Category tab, so you can assign them to categories? This is quite confusing and is not working for me.

(Just for clarification, you can have an "Unfiled" category in iSilo. However, 4.05 does not give it any special significance and documents must be filed in the category to appear.)

This is a common complaint here in the forums. I am sure the issue will be addressed in a future version of iSilo.

The easiest way to categorize an unfiled document is on the "Device & Storage Cards" tab. If the document is one of your "Favorite" folders, then the "Favorites" tab is also an option.

Note: there is currently no way to view just the unfiled documents. The "official" iSilo workaround (in one of the above threads) is to install new documents into a specific directory and then copy them over as you file them. It is not a technical solution, but it is effective.

The method for moving docs about on the card using iSilo is not very convenient. You can only move one at a time, after waiting for the pop-up shortcut menu to show, and you can't create new folders - only pick from the few preset ones on the list.

First, the ability to select multiple documents at once is also a common complaint (this was supposedly available with 4.01 and earlier, but I never used it).

Second, you do not have to wait for the pop-up shortcut in the new version of iSilo. Clicking the document icon to the left of the name immediately brings up the list.

Third, preset folders? That is dumb. Following this message I will make a suggestion that the copy list follow your "Favorite" folders. In that manner, you could specify arbitrary copy destinations.

By the way, a suggestion: it would be nice if the lists allowed you to write a letter and jump to the first doc name starting with that letter if it's not on screen. Scrolling is more laborious.

I know it is getting old, but, again, a common request.

[iSilo]

I swap to the Devices tab and immediately back to the Categories tab. There is now a new category in the list called Manuals that I did not just create, and it has 2 of my 3 manuals docs in it (I created a category of that name about five Settings database deletions ago).Voltage Spike is correct in his guess. iSilo searches through the internal storage memory and the /Palm/Programs/iSilo and /Palm/Launcher directories of storage cards for new documents. New documents are documents that have not been viewed or categorized. Any new documents it finds that have a default category specified are added to the specified category. So those docs that have been placed into the Manuals category must have been created with a default category of "Manuals".

Downloaded and installed the most recent 4.05. It does the same thing. Yes, there IS an Unfiled category, and I didn't create it. Menu item, Refresh, doesn't help display the "missing" documents in any category.

Now, if iSilo is not supposed to have an Unfiled category, then where do all the docs that are as yet unallocated to other categories get displayed in the Category tab, so you can assign them to categories? This is quite confusing and is not working for me.The creation of an Unfiled category is a result of the same process of automatic categorization of new documents with default categories described above. However, this "Unfiled" category is the result of a bug with iSiloX Clipper for Internet Explorer. The bug is that if you create a document with iSiloX Clipper for Internet Explorer and set the category as Unfiled, it erroneously creates a document with an actual category named "Unfiled". This issue was addressed as of RC1 of the iSiloX 4.05 beta and the fix is thus also in the iSiloX 4.05 release. So any documents generated with iSiloX Clipper 4.05 will not exhibit this issue.

The method for moving docs about on the card using iSilo is not very convenient. You can only move one at a time, after waiting for the pop-up shortcut menu to show, and you can't create new folders - only pick from the few preset ones on the list.Unfortunately, iSilo does not have the functionality of a file manager yet, but please give it some more time. The 4.05 revamp of the document list view was the first necessary step towards something like that.

Looking at the Categories tab, there are now only two categories; Business and Personal.By default, when installing iSilo for the very first time (e.g., never installed iSilo before and thus have no settings), iSilo automatically creates the categories Business and Personal.

Back on the Categories tab, most of them still don't show under any category. The Manuals category has reappeared.If a document has not been categorized, then it will not show in any category since there is no unfiled category.

[iSilo]

First, the ability to select multiple documents at once is also a common complaint (this was supposedly available with 4.01 and earlier, but I never used it).
Actually, multiple selection was never available in any previous version either.

[Voltage Spike]

Actually, multiple selection was never available in any previous version either.

I apologize for the misinformation. I would have sworn that one of the complaints in here was related to the fact that (in the new version) they could no longer select multiple documents by holding down the jog dial as they rolled the dial to select multiple documents. However, I cannot find such a post.

[Neilsky]

Thanks for all the replies, folks. For the record, here's my experience:

1. No, I did not have an old copy of the DB in memory, only the new one.

2. While I haven't done exhaustive testing (and don't plan to invest the time), I strongly suspect that the DB conversion to the new version was responsible for corrupting the database, causing the initial crash. This probably only happens in particular cases of DB conversion.

3. Yes, several documents did have an "Unfiled" default category setting (yes, these were from iSiloX), as did some for "Manuals". Lots (from iSiloX) had a default setting of "Web Content". So that is why those categories kept popping up by themselves.

Now, after the previous advice, I've been able to categorize my documents, but there are significant issues. The two majors are:

1. Bug
Has happened to me several times whilst categorizing documents; the list simply stops responding to taps on document names and their little doc icons (and pressing the right 5-way button for the shortcut menu). You have to reselect an item on the drop-down list at the top to get the taps active again. Not entirely sure, but I think this happens immediately after moving a document from one category to another whilst in the Category tab; ie it has had to refresh the list because the doc no longer belongs in the currently selected category. Then, tap the next doc (the first one in the new list), and, no response.

2. UI Design
Congrats to the developers for creating such a good reader, with a nice, simple but powerful reading interface. Unfortunatly, I have to say that the current LISTING UI design is a BIG retrograde step in usability. I suspect the design is intended to give maximum flexibility, and especially to allow multi-category assignments. Super flexibility is a good thing, but ONLY if there is little sacrifice in simplicity for most users.

While I am a power Palm user (I have more than 150 apps on my T2 and do some pretty neat stuff), I have no need for multi-category document assignments, and the current interface makes locating documents and opening them more laborious than before. Consider this:

Unlike every one of the other Palm apps I use, this one (iSilo) has decided that the metaphor of documents or records automatically falling into the Unfiled category, is not to be applied. Therefore, to determine whether any of my documents DON'T appear in any of the categories (from where I open all docs), I have to do one of two things:

a. Browse through all the category listings with a particular document in mind to see if it is there. Can't find it... wonder if I installed it in the right place on the card, or at all. Move over to the Devices tab and see if it's there. Repeat for every document.

b. Start on the Devices tab and tap every document (takes two taps per document to see its category assignments) to make sure they're all assigned to categories you want. This is the approach I had to take to categorize all my docs, now, after the upgrade.

This is very laborious and not good UI design. The handheld metaphor is for unassigned docs to be put in the Unfiled category automatically. From there, you can see imediately the one or two strays that are unassigned (or deliberately assigned to Unfiled if that's your fancy), and can deal with those very quickly. Making the user check every document (I have 60) just to make sure that one or two errant documents get put in their correct category, is a backwards step.

Finding documents to open them is by far the most laborious thing in iSilo. The rest of the package is very good indeed, and the developers are to be congratulated. To make the listing portion as good as the rest, I suggest:

1. Put the unfiled to Unfiled metaphor back, on the Categories tab!

2. Add the ability to write the first letter and jump to the first doc starting with that letter, in any tab's doc listing. This in my view is far more important than the very clever multi-category thing.

3. Modify how the 5-way scrolls. Scrolling lists is quite tedious, because the 5-way goes down one document at a time, not a screen at a time, even when no document is selected. Otherwise, you have to get your pen out and start tapping the little scroll bar (more on that below). Make the 5-way work somewhat like the Address Book list; when no doc is selected, scroll Up or Down a whole page. Press Right to select the doc at top of current screen listing. When a doc is selected, Up and Down move one document through the list. Center 5-way opens doc (as it does now). When document is open, Center 5-way closes it. Then, you don't need to use your pen for anything; the finger can do listings, selection, opening, browsing and closing. A neat little addition would be to make the Left 5-way, on the Categories and Favourites tabs, cycle through the category and location items in the top dropdown list. Then there would be no need to get your pen out whilst reading, at all.

4. Modify how the doc list scroll bar works. It can only be tapped (in the TINY little up and down arrows, or in the little remaining empty-bar space). Make it draggable; it's too hard to reliably tab those tiny little areas. (Scrolling the doc list is such a pain in iSilo that I have categorized my documents into numerous pseudo-categories whose lists are less than a page! Locating and getting to the document you want, quickly, is a key performance criterion for a reader.)

Well, that's my two-bob's worth after a very frustrating few HOURS spent getting the latest version of the product back to where I was in the last version. Congratulations again to the developers for a reader that does such a good job, especially with graphics, and with getting Web content onto your handheld with a minimum of effort. Some attention to the front end would make this a much more friendly product for locating the document you are seeking, quickly and easily.

Cheers
Neil

[iSilo]

Neilsky, thanks for the detailed feedback. Your comments will of course be taken under consideration. And just to reassure everyone else, this applies to any comments anybody makes as well.

Modify how the doc list scroll bar works. It can only be tapped (in the TINY little up and down arrows, or in the little remaining empty-bar space). Make it draggable; it's too hard to reliably tab those tiny little areas.The scroll bar is draggable and has always been so. To do so, hold the stylus down on the rectangular car whose length relative to the entire scroll bar is proportional to the number of lines displayed relative to the total number of lines in the current list, and drag it. The list will actively move with your drags.

Put the unfiled to Unfiled metaphor back, on the Categories tab!There are plans currently to add an [Uncategorized] selection to the top-level category list, which when selected will have iSilo list all documents/files in the internal storage memory and the top-level files within all favorite folders that do not yet belong to any category. In addition, there will be an option that will be on by default which will show on top of the regular document icon to indicate whether the given file belongs to any category. Right now, its looking like this will be implemented in time for the next update, expected to enter beta in a few weeks or so.

[Neilsky]

Thanks for the replies.

I tried dragging the scroll bars in both doc list view and doc open view, and was about to report that it definetly doesn't drag on my T2. But, having been distracted for a few seconds while holding the pen down, I find that drag DOES work, but only after a 2 to 5 second delay.

For example, one of my doc categories now shows 10 of 19 docs in list view, and I have to hold the scroll drag for 3 to 4 seconds before the little list updates. If I lift the pen before the list updates, it doesn't update at all, as though I hadn't done anything. This is also the case with both vertical and horizontal scroll bars in open docs, and can take longer if there is formatting (eg a captured Web page).

I think this is way to slow to be practical, and could do with some attention if possible before the next release.

Thanks also for the good news about Uncategorized. I look forward to it coming back.

[iSilo]

The response from dragging the scroll car should be immediate. You should not be experiencing a multi-second delay.

Do you perhaps have some other application installed that is intercepting taps or movements of the stylus on the screen?

[Neilsky]

Hmm. While I use a lot of hacks, none of them operates on the main screen area as far as I know - only on the silk screen area. Anyway, just to make sure, I turned ALL of them off. (I never use Graffiti's Write Anywhere function specifically for the pause/interrupt problem.) Scrolling was still just as slow.

I transferred iSilo 405 to my old m505 so I could test the same version on that device. Scrolling was relatively immediate (a slight pause here and there but always evident as a user experience that something was happening), and MUCH faster than on the T2. Especially, when a drag-and-release wasn't acted on instantly, it WAS remembered on the m505 and acted upon in less than half a second. By contrast, I experience typically a 2 - 4 second delay if I hold the pen down on the T2, and if the scroll hasn't been acted out before I lift the pen, the scroll is always forgotten.

All other apps on the T2 run significantly faster than they do on the m505.

--- Later ---
Hard reset the T2. Installed ONLY the main iSilo app. Document list and docs (all on SD card) drag-scroll far more "instantly" than they do on the m505 - so the app is working fine by itself.

OK, I've got a bit of homework to do to find out what else is interfering with scrolling, though I've no ideas so far. Can't think of any apps that consume background processing power (and other apps work as fast as I can use them), and none that do any main-screen capturing. It's none of my known hacks, since I switched them all off in the first test.

Restored T2, iSilo scroll is very slow again. Other applications on myT2 that I found have draggable scroll bars, and all work instantly: Palm Prefs, Palm Memopad, Palm SMS, BeamPro, Tomeraider*, Slovoed, AvantGo, DocumentsToGo*, Filez, McFile, ZLauncher file manager, Secret!, FunBook, Font Bucket, HandZipper. (*These two apps use a different drag-scroll method - scroll is acted on AFTER the pen is lifted.) No other apps have slow drag-scrolls. They are all instant.

Does iSilo use a customised way of detecting drag actions, different from the norm?

I'm stumped. Anyone got any ideas???